मुझे सबसे विडंबनापूर्ण बात यह लगी कि एक पत्रकार के तौर पर हमारे लिए सबसे सुरक्षित समय वह था जब असल युद्ध चल रहा था। उन दिनों, लड़ाई के उस चरण के दौरान, हम उनके निशाने पर नहीं थे। युद्ध के तुरंत बाद, पहले या दूसरे महीने के दौरान, यह बेहद सुरक्षित था। हम इराक में कहीं भी जा सकते थे, किसी से भी बात कर सकते थे और हमें किसी बात की चिंता करने की ज़रूरत नहीं थी।
What I found most ironic is that the safest part for us as journalists was during the actual war. Back then, during that stage of fighting, we were not targets. After the war itself, during the first month or two, it was extremely safe. We could go anywhere in Iraq, talk to anyone, and didn't have to worry about anything.
What I found most ironic is that the safest part for us as journalists was during the actual war. Back then, during that stage of fighting, we were not targets. After the war itself, during the first month or two, it was extremely safe. We could go anywhere in Iraq, talk to anyone, and didn't have to worry about anything.
क्योंकि हम वहाँ [इराक में] चाहे जितना भी पैसा खर्च कर लें, जब तक वहाँ के लोग इस पैसे को... एक ऐसी मदद के रूप में देखते हैं जो उन्हें स्वीकार्य नहीं है, जब तक हमारे द्वारा उनके अपने देश में उनका अपमान किया जाता रहेगा... मेरा मतलब है, भविष्य बहुत निराशाजनक दिख रहा था, और उसके बाद का भविष्य तो वाकई बहुत ही ज़्यादा अंधकारमय था।
Because no matter how much money we spend there [in Iraq], as long as the people there see this money as... as assistance that is unwelcome, as long as they continue to be humiliated in their own country by us... I mean, the future looked bleak, and the future after that was in fact very bleak.
Because no matter how much money we spend there [in Iraq], as long as the people there see this money as... as assistance that is unwelcome, as long as they continue to be humiliated in their own country by us... I mean, the future looked bleak, and the future after that was in fact very bleak.
युद्ध के नियम इतने ढीले हैं कि सैनिक मात्र शक के आधार पर इराक के लोगों को गोली मार रहे हैं और मार रहे हैं, और त्रासदियाँ रोज़ की बात बन गई हैं। सड़क पर हत्याएँ होती हैं, जब कोई किसी काफिले को पार करने की कोशिश करता है तो उसे गोली मार दी जाती है। या अगर सड़क किनारे कोई बम फट जाता है, तो सैनिक बस हर दिशा में गोलीबारी शुरू कर देते हैं।
The rules of engagement are so lax that soldiers are shooting and killing Iraqis under mere suspicion, and tragedies are everyday. There are road killings, killings on the road when someone is trying to pass a convoy and they get shot. Or if a roadside bomb goes off, the soldiers just start shooting in all directions.
The rules of engagement are so lax that soldiers are shooting and killing Iraqis under mere suspicion, and tragedies are everyday. There are road killings, killings on the road when someone is trying to pass a convoy and they get shot. Or if a roadside bomb goes off, the soldiers just start shooting in all directions.
अमेरिकी अधिकारी सहायता और विकास परियोजनाओं के बारे में बात करने की कोशिश कर रहा था और आखिरकार स्थानीय कबीले का एक मुखिया उठा और बोला, "भले ही तुम हमारे देश को स्वर्ग बना दो, हमें तुम्हारी यह मदद नहीं चाहिए। बस हमें हमारे हाल पर छोड़ दो।"
The American official was trying to talk about aid and development projects and finally a local tribal chief got up and said, "Even if you turn our country into heaven, we don't want it from you. Just leave us."
The American official was trying to talk about aid and development projects and finally a local tribal chief got up and said, "Even if you turn our country into heaven, we don't want it from you. Just leave us."
जहाँ तक सैनिकों के आचरण की बात है: किसी भी देश पर कब्ज़ा करने से कब्ज़ा करने वाले हमेशा भ्रष्ट हो जाते हैं।
Now as to the behavior of the soldiers: occupations always corrupt the occupiers.
Now as to the behavior of the soldiers: occupations always corrupt the occupiers.
मुस्लिम दुनिया में यदि आप एक उदारवादी भी हैं, तब भी अबू ग़रीब और ग्वांतानामो को देखकर तथा अमेरिकी बलों द्वारा अत्याचारों की अन्य सभी रिपोर्टों को पढ़कर, खड़े होकर यह कहना बहुत कठिन हो जाता है कि, "हमें अमेरिकी तौर-तरीकों का अनुकरण करना चाहिए," क्योंकि कई मुसलमानों के लिए मुस्लिम दुनिया में अब अमेरिका का यही चेहरा बन गया है।
Even if you are a liberal in the Muslim world, when you see Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and you see all the other reports of abuses by American forces, it's very hard to get up and say, "We should simulate the American ways," because this is the face of America now in the Muslim world, for many Muslims.
Even if you are a liberal in the Muslim world, when you see Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and you see all the other reports of abuses by American forces, it's very hard to get up and say, "We should simulate the American ways," because this is the face of America now in the Muslim world, for many Muslims.
इसलिए आतंकवाद से लड़ने के हमारे प्रयासों में, हमारे अपने कदमों ने ही कभी-कभी हमारी सुरक्षा को कमजोर किया है। यह तभी काम कर सकता है जब हम उदारवादियों और मध्यममार्गी मुस्लिम ताकतों के साथ खड़े हों। लेकिन अगर आतंकवाद के खिलाफ हमारे युद्ध को — जैसा कि कई मुसलमानों द्वारा देखा जाता है — इस्लाम के खिलाफ ही युद्ध के रूप में देखा जाता है, तो हमारे लिए मुस्लिम गठबंधन बनाना बहुत कठिन हो जाता है, क्योंकि अमेरिका और पश्चिम की छवि बहुत जहरीली हो चुकी है।
So our own actions sometimes have undermined our safety, in our efforts to fight terrorism. The only way this can work is if we are aligned with liberals, with moderate Muslim forces. But if our war on terrorism is seen - as it is seen by many Muslims - as a war on Islam itself, it's very hard for us to have Muslim alliances, because America and the West have become so toxic.
So our own actions sometimes have undermined our safety, in our efforts to fight terrorism. The only way this can work is if we are aligned with liberals, with moderate Muslim forces. But if our war on terrorism is seen - as it is seen by many Muslims - as a war on Islam itself, it's very hard for us to have Muslim alliances, because America and the West have become so toxic.
यहाँ तक कि अगर आप ईरान को भी देखें, तो वहाँ मानवाधिकारों के लिए campaña (अभियान) चलाने वाले लोग अमेरिका से कोई संबंध नहीं रखना चाहते, क्योंकि उन्हें डर है कि अमेरिकी समर्थन मिलना उनके आंदोलन के लिए मौत का परवाना साबित होगा। और यह वास्तव में बहुत दुखद है।
Even if you look at Iran, those campaigners for human rights there, they don't want to have anything to do with America, because they are afraid that having American support will be the kiss of death for their movement. And that's really tragic.
Even if you look at Iran, those campaigners for human rights there, they don't want to have anything to do with America, because they are afraid that having American support will be the kiss of death for their movement. And that's really tragic.
लेकिन अफगानिस्तान में सामान्य नियम यह था कि चूंकि आप तालिबान से लड़ रहे थे, जो कि कोई वैध सरकारी सेना नहीं थी, इसलिए जिनेवा कन्वेंशन लागू नहीं होता था। और इसी वजह से अफगानिस्तान में बहुत ज्यादतियां हुईं, ऐसी ज्यादतियां जैसे कि अबू ग़रीब, जिनके चर्चे पहले से ही आम हो चुके थे।
But in Afghanistan, the general rule was that since you were fighting the Taliban, which was not a lawful government force, the Geneva Conventions did not apply. And that led to a lot of excesses in Afghanistan, excesses like Abu Ghraib that were already well-publicized.
But in Afghanistan, the general rule was that since you were fighting the Taliban, which was not a lawful government force, the Geneva Conventions did not apply. And that led to a lot of excesses in Afghanistan, excesses like Abu Ghraib that were already well-publicized.
9/11 और इराक युद्ध से बहुत पहले से ही, बहुत से लोग संयुक्त राज्य अमेरिका और पश्चिमी देशों से नफरत करते थे। लेकिन इराक युद्ध ने जो किया है—कम से कम... मेरा मतलब है, ज़मीनी स्तर पर लोगों से मुझे जो देखने को मिलता है, वह यह है कि इसने मुस्लिम दुनिया में कई अमेरिका-समर्थक आवाज़ों को चुप करा दिया है।
Long before 9/11 and the war in Iraq, a lot of people hated the United States and the West. But what the Iraqi war seems to have done, at least in... I mean, I'm just reporting what I see from the people on the ground, is that it has silenced many pro-American forces in the Muslim world.
Long before 9/11 and the war in Iraq, a lot of people hated the United States and the West. But what the Iraqi war seems to have done, at least in... I mean, I'm just reporting what I see from the people on the ground, is that it has silenced many pro-American forces in the Muslim world.
अफ़ग़ानिस्तान में कब्ज़े के दौरान भी त्रासदियाँ हुई हैं। यह इराक जितना बुरा नहीं है क्योंकि वहाँ अमेरिकी सैनिकों की संख्या कम है। लेकिन, जैसा कि मैं अपनी किताब में बताता हूँ, जब सैनिक गश्त पर निकले और एक गाँव में पहुँचे, तो उन्हें दस्तावेजों का एक जखीरा मिला और उन्होंने तय कर लिया कि यह तालिबान का प्रचार साहित्य है।
In the occupation in Afghanistan, there are tragedies as well. It's not as bad as in Iraq because there are fewer American troops. But, as I describe in the book, going out on patrol and coming into a village, the soldiers found a stash of documents and decided this was Taliban propaganda.
In the occupation in Afghanistan, there are tragedies as well. It's not as bad as in Iraq because there are fewer American troops. But, as I describe in the book, going out on patrol and coming into a village, the soldiers found a stash of documents and decided this was Taliban propaganda.
खैर, यह अमेरिकी सेना के साथ एक आम समस्या है। यदि आप दुनिया की सबसे बड़ी और सबसे ताकतवर सैन्य शक्ति हैं, तो दूर-दराज के इलाकों के स्थानीय लोगों के अजीबोगरीब तौर-तरीकों को सीखने में आपकी एक स्वाभाविकि हिचकिचाहट होती है।
Well, it's a problem in general with the American military. If you are the biggest and the strongest military power in the world, you have this natural reluctance to learn the quirky ways of the natives in faraway lands.
Well, it's a problem in general with the American military. If you are the biggest and the strongest military power in the world, you have this natural reluctance to learn the quirky ways of the natives in faraway lands.
मुझे लगता है कि [इराक में] विद्रोह के बढ़ने और अमेरिका विरोधी भावनाओं के उभरने में वहाँ के सैनिकों का आचरण एक बहुत बड़ा कारक रहा है।
I think the behavior of the troops has been a huge factor in the rise of the insurgency and in the rise of the anti-American feelings there[in Iraq].
I think the behavior of the troops has been a huge factor in the rise of the insurgency and in the rise of the anti-American feelings there[in Iraq].
इराक जैसे देश में, जहाँ खून के बदले खून लेने की संस्कृति है—सच्चाई यह है कि जितने अधिक स्थानीय लोग मारे जाते हैं, विद्रोहियों के मन में विद्रोह की उतनी ही अधिक प्रेरणा और बदले की भावना पैदा होती है, और अंत में सैनिकों की अपनी सुरक्षा उतनी ही खतरे में पड़ जाती है, क्योंकि आज जो सैनिक किसी मासूम बच्चे को मारता है, वह कल अपने ही किसी साथी के हत्यारे को तैयार कर रहा होता है।
In a country like Iraq with its culture of blood feuds - is that the more locals are killed, the more motivation there is for the insurgency, for the insurgents the more feelings of revenge there are, and in the end the more the operational security of the soldiers suffers, because any soldier who kills an infant today is grooming the killer of his mate tomorrow.
In a country like Iraq with its culture of blood feuds - is that the more locals are killed, the more motivation there is for the insurgency, for the insurgents the more feelings of revenge there are, and in the end the more the operational security of the soldiers suffers, because any soldier who kills an infant today is grooming the killer of his mate tomorrow.
दूसरी समस्या यह है कि इराक या अफगानिस्तान में कई सैनिकों की प्राथमिकता परिचालन सुरक्षा यानी अपनी जान बचाना होती है। अब यह एक बहुत ही जायज प्राथमिकता है, लेकिन इसे अन्य कई प्राथमिकताओं के साथ संतुलित करना होगा, खासकर इस प्रक्रिया में बहुत अधिक स्थानीय लोगों को न मारने के लिहाज से।
The other problem is that the priority of many soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan is operational security: not getting killed. Now that is a very valid priority, but it has to be balanced against many other priorities, especially not killing too many locals in the process.
The other problem is that the priority of many soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan is operational security: not getting killed. Now that is a very valid priority, but it has to be balanced against many other priorities, especially not killing too many locals in the process.
मैंने कुछ समय सेना के साथ रहकर रिपोर्टिंग की थी। और यदि आप सेना के साथ जुड़े हैं, तो आप केवल वही देख पाते हैं जो सैनिक देखते हैं, और अगर लोग आपसे बात भी करते हैं, तो वे आपसे ऐसे बात करते हैं जैसे आप कोई सैनिक हों, क्योंकि आपकी बुलेटप्रूफ जैकेट और हेलमेट की वजह वे आपमें और आपके पास खड़े सैनिक में कोई फर्क नहीं कर पाते, और ज़ाहिर है कि वे आपसे कभी अपने दिल की असली बात नहीं कहेंगे क्योंकि उन्हें आपसे डर लगता है।
I did some embedded stuff. And if you are embedded, the only things you see are what the soldiers see, and if the people talk to you, they talk to you as if you are a soldier, because with your flak jacket and your helmet, they can't tell the difference between you and the soldier next to you, and they obviously won't tell you what they really think because they are afraid of you.
I did some embedded stuff. And if you are embedded, the only things you see are what the soldiers see, and if the people talk to you, they talk to you as if you are a soldier, because with your flak jacket and your helmet, they can't tell the difference between you and the soldier next to you, and they obviously won't tell you what they really think because they are afraid of you.
यदि आप अठारह या उन्नीस साल के हैं और आपकी शिक्षा-दीक्षा भी कम हुई है, जैसा कि अक्सर होता है, और आपको दुनिया के दूसरे कोने में ढेरों लोगों की जिम्मेदारी सौंप दी जाती है, तो आपके पास असीमित ताकत आ जाती है जिसके लिए आप बिल्कुल तैयार नहीं होते।
If you are an eighteen or nineteen-year-old with little education, as is often the case, and you're put in charge of many, many people on the other end of the world, you have absolute power and you're not prepared for it.
If you are an eighteen or nineteen-year-old with little education, as is often the case, and you're put in charge of many, many people on the other end of the world, you have absolute power and you're not prepared for it.
मुझे लगता है कि बगदाद में किसी भी पश्चिमी व्यक्ति, चाहे वह पत्रकार हो या नहीं, के माथे पर डॉलर का एक बड़ा सा निशान छपा होता है। इसलिए, सबसे पहले और सबसे महत्वपूर्ण रूप से, आप अकूत दौलत कमाने का एक जरिया हैं। और यही बात सुरक्षित इलाकों से बाहर के किसी भी सफर को बेहद खतरनाक बना देती है।
I think in Baghdad, any westerner, journalist or not, has a big dollar sign on his or her forehead. So, first and foremost, you are a ticket to unimaginable wealth. And that makes any trips out of the safe zones very risky.
I think in Baghdad, any westerner, journalist or not, has a big dollar sign on his or her forehead. So, first and foremost, you are a ticket to unimaginable wealth. And that makes any trips out of the safe zones very risky.
और अगर आप तुर्की का उदाहरण देखें, जहाँ आधुनिक इस्लामवादी सत्ता में हैं और बहुत अच्छा काम कर रहे हैं—तो यह बहुत अच्छी बात है। क्योंकि मुस्लिम दुनिया में लोकतंत्र तब तक संभव नहीं है जब तक कि आप उन इस्लामवादियों को या उन इस्लामवादियों के एक हिस्से को, जो आज हमसे नफरत करते हैं, इन सरकारों में शामिल नहीं करते।
And if you look at the experience of Turkey, for example, where the modern Islamists are in power and are doing fine - this is very good. Because democracy is not possible in the Muslim world without bringing in the Islamists or part of the Islamists who hate us now into these governments.
And if you look at the experience of Turkey, for example, where the modern Islamists are in power and are doing fine - this is very good. Because democracy is not possible in the Muslim world without bringing in the Islamists or part of the Islamists who hate us now into these governments.